GOP--Sore Losers

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:16 pm

violence in the media wrote:Also, what counts as a very small business? And, is there a way to identify and separate the faux-businesses* from the legitimate attempts at livelihood?

Example 1: Lori Locksmith: I believe he employs one other person besides himself; can't get insurance.
Example 2: Fence King (next to Lori Locksmith): Not sure how many he employs but the owner can't get insurance.

(You know you can learn a lot when you the lock on your briefcase that holds your old barbershop stuff breaks.)

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:39 pm

You know what? Our 'fairly reasonable' healthcare costs about 20K a year for two of us. We don't have children, but they would be covered. We have no choice in that.

'Pre-existing conditions' like implants from the drunk driver that destroyed the front of my Sammi's face when she was 18 isn't covered, so we had to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket to replace a damaged tooth. The implant needed to be replaced with a permanent cap (it was wearing down) - not covered. Also not covered is psychiatric sessions (tho strangely, they cover the meds) and while allergy visits at the clinic are covered, the medicines I need not to turn into lobster girl is not. Luckily, the local non-emergency clinic is in the PPO, so we qualify for there. Unluckily, they decided that tendon damage in Sammi's knee last year that left her on crutches was not covered. Nor was the orthopedic shoe for when she broke her toe. So while we pay for this great plan, we've paid $3800 of the ~$8090 of medical expenses we incurred last year.*

Why? Because apparently we don't pay enough for a plan.

The plans you can get here - assuming you have no red-flag pre-existing like an ongoing disease or having survive cancer - for $5K all have high deductibles (like, $2K before insurance will kick in, assuming they decide to cover it) and then only pay 40 to 60% of anything beyond that.

This is why people go bankrupt when a medical emergency happens.

Please note that a plan like ours would cost many times more its current cost if purchased on the individual market. And insurers are allowed to jack the cost to us if we have any emergencies; and they are allowed to reject us as well. That's exactly the opposite of insurance or pooled risk.

...

Now, on another note... People often get paid to go door-to-door to pass flyers or get signatures or whatnot. Why? Because it costs them money to do so - they lose out the chance to make money at work; it expends travel costs and food being out and about. So it's completely normal for campaign staffers to be paid to go house to house! At no point were any of those people paid to stand somewhere with signs, or paid or provided with services to create protests of volunteers.

And after I pull up three links with a half dozen astroturf organizations you pull... George Soros? What, there's one guy like the guy who paid for the swift-boaters on the left, so it's okay? Even though at no point has anything he funded been accused of lying about the things they're lobbying for or even hiding its association with him?

WTF, tzor, that's like saying all the serial killers are okay because of Bernhard Goetz.

-Crissa

* - Medical savings accounts top out at $5K, and most medical providers (though not ours, but our hospital does) charge up to 10x more to people without insurance. That's no way to cover, pre-tax, any sort of hospital visit (which average over $10K each; a common bypass surgery can cost over $100K.)

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:57 pm

PS: While Medicare Advantage is popular with Repulicans and seniors for the choice it offers, tzor, it is subsidized by the government by over 12% and we've known this for several years. They pay doctors no more than plain Medicare, provide no more services than Medicare, and have the same satisfaction rates of Medicare... And cost just a flat 10% more to taxpayers than government-provided Medicare. And have a 3% mandated extra cost in there!

Are you saying we shouldn't look at programs and see that we get the same bread from Gov. Bakery as Joe's bakery, but for cheaper? Why is it important that the CEO of Joe's Bakery Inc should be employed to pay his employees less than the Gov. Bakery, but we pay his company more?

What kind of fiscal responsibility is that?

-Crissa

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:30 pm

Largest news network pushes tea-parties despite the parties' unpopularity. This is the very definition of astroturf.

-Crissa

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:58 am

Fox was doing that with the original April 15 Tea Parties as well. Apparently, even though they've actively been promoting conservative rallies, rather than just covering them as news events, they're still "fair and balanced" because they say so.

Edit: And tzor, you missed these two paragraphs from your NYT link:

Bill Petty, field director of the National Climate Campaign in North Dakota and 12 other states for Environmental Defense Action Fund, said there's a difference between what his group is doing and the campaigns backed by American Petroleum Institute, the trade group of oil and gas companies that launched a citizens' campaign. In API's case, Petty said, member oil companies are busing workers to rallies, encouraging retired workers to go, and opening up company cafeterias for events.

Environmental Defense Action Fund -- the political arm of the advocacy group Environmental Defense Fund -- was using its ads to hire people to contact voters and ask them if they would be willing to sign a petition or call a senator, Petty said. The group is not paying people to attend town halls or rallies.

Of course, the NYT managed to buy the spin from one of those self-appointed intellectuals of conservative talk radio, who tried to argue that paying people to gather petition signatures is exactly the same thing as bussing people to rallies. The strategy, apparently, is to try to expand the definition of "astroturfing" so they can claim a false equivalence.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:28 am

So, a little thread necro, because a conservative acquaintance of mine has gone completely off the rails since the re-election, and this seemed like the best place for it. Here's an actual FB conversation a friend of mine had with him.

Spoilered for length.

Friend: <remarks about fiscal cliff negotiations>
Friend: After that they would have to press for comprehensive immigration reform and see if the Republican's desire for relevance past 2020 will force them to negotiate a reasonable bill.

Acquaintance: No. Why don't just let the democrats do whatever they want? I'd like to see how that turns out. THis is what you bought.

Friend: Because the Democrats won on that platform and because the Republicans would be destroyed in the next election cycle if they vote against tax cuts for $250,000 or less. Also the military lobbyist would pressure them to accept a deal that would restore some of the massive mandatory cuts in the military.

Acquaintance: Yup. Let's see it. THis is what you bought
Acquaintance: No deals, though
Acquaintance: Just do whatever you want
Acquaintance: total democrat agenda. THis is going to be great
Acquaintance: THere's not just going to be free birthcontrol, TAKING IT WILL BE MANDATORY

Friend: Well, if it was up to me the Republicans would have lost more of the house too. It's a shame Obama didn't do any campaigning for his candidates in the House. Also yeah, I would like the Democrats to grow some balls and push their agenda through Bush style. I also think it's quite possible. There are already 5 Republican house votes for the tax cut extension Obama wants and he only needs like 20 total (I forget the exact number).
Friend: Also, I'll assume you are kidding about your last comment.

Acquaintance: Uh. It's all Bush's fault. Also, republicans hate women. And Susan Rice will make the best Secretary of State ever.
Acquaintance: And if the republicans do even one thing, filibuster 1 vote in the next 4 years, when we find our selves in a depression, you'll feel perfectly justified in blaming the republicans for it

Friend: Where did I blame Bush, state Republicans hate woman or mention Obama's nominees for the new term? How is that relevant?

Acquaintance: It's called a "party-line".

Friend: I'm only talking about the first year's legislative agenda. There's plenty of blame to go around for the state of our economy over the last 10 years. I don't necessarily agree with Rice being nominated for Secretary of State (mostly for political reasons).

Acquaintance: THis is what you bought. Just remeber that for the next 4 years

Friend: I'm not a party line voter though, I did vote for Romney for Governor in MA. The problem is there have been no palatable candidates outside of the Democratic party where I have been able to vote. You assume too much.

Acquaintance: This is what you bought
Acquaintance: OK, I'm actually dying to hear this----how was romney "un-palatable"?

The acquaintance had been kind of a thoughtlessly reflexive Republican before, but he had not even been close to this kind of bizarre incoherent mantra-spouting conspiracy nut.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:48 am

Heh. True story:

Election night, I came into work and saw the lobby TV was off. I thought this odd. It's usually on.

Later that night, I was wondering how the election was going, and asked the guard at the desk (I was mopping the lobby) if I could turn it on to check the election status. Got told 'no' because the Colonel had banned political coverage/discussion after an incident that morning.

Seems a woman came in wearing an Obama shirt, and in generally good spirits. And a man had taken issue with this, so they'd had a debate right there in the lobby. And the debate turned into a screaming match. The man called her a very nasty name, and she called her husband and he drove to the workplace ready for a fight. An incident report was filed, and the Colonel declared no TV for the day, until everyone was ready to act like actual adults.

And the rest of the week after the election was dead quiet. A lot of the conservatives called in sick on Wednesday, I understand.

Honestly, it's still be quiet. I haven't heard near the conservative vitriol in random conversation as I'd heard before the election.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:02 am

My wife went shopping with her mother on Black Friday, and her mother asked who she voted for (Obama), and her mom flipped out because she and basically all of my wife's family eat Fox News and AM conservative radio garbage up with a spoon, check that, face down in the trough. Anywho, my poor wife got the 3rd degree because apparently Catholics aren't allowed to vote for Democrats.

My wife gets awful Fox news FUD chain letters from her dad all the time, but today, I got one as well, along with my wife and the rest of her immediate family. I'm pretty sure I got tagged on this one because of the shopping incident where we were outed as rational human beings.

Well, here it is. This is the crap that my wife gets all the time and now I'm on the list too. *sigh* I don't want to make a fuss because I can't imagine them changing their minds and I definitely don't want to make family visits change from being enjoyable to dreaded experiences. So I will bite my tongue.

(spoiler because it is a nearly pure string of lies, and freaking long)

Well, It's official; I don't know anything.

I thought for sure that given such a clear choice, Americans would vote for love of country over revenge.

I was wrong.

I thought, that just as every presidential election in my lifetime, the bad economy would be hung around the incumbent's neck, sinking him.

I was wrong.

I thought that even those few Americans who were fortunate enough to still be fully employed (not counting those leeching off the public system) would be cognizant of how much pain their neighbors were in and elect someone who would at least try to make improvements.

I was wrong.

I thought that now that FINALLY some of the disturbing truths about our first black president had come to light, voters would reject a man so dangerously at odds with the American experience.

I was wrong.

I thought the 2010 elections and the Tea Party meant something.

I thought the enthusiasm on display at Romney/Ryan events, contrasted with the lack of same at Obama/Biden events meant something.

I thought Americans would never sell their liberty for the sake of trinkets like cell phones or even big shiny lies like 'free health care'.

I was wrong.

Never in a million years would I have supposed that America would support a president who left his (our) people to die at the hands of our enemies overseas without lifting a hand to help, then lie about what he watched in real time for over two weeks, then lie about the lie for another month.

I was wrong.

I thought Americans could tell a hawk from a handsaw.

I was wrong.

We were offered the clearest choice we've has since 1980, where we had malaise and a misery index on one hand and a shining city on a hill on the other. Back then, we chose the city on the hill. This time the choice was between a man who says 7.9% unemployment and $4.00 gas is the new normal and a guy whose entire career has been about fixing broken entities.

We chose to stay broken. And Broke.

Maybe I'm wrong about the ramifications of this choice. Maybe windmills will actually turn out to be a viable energy source. Maybe America diminished will be loved overseas. Maybe a nuclear Iran won't be a threat. Maybe Israel is over reacting. Maybe western civilization was always over rated. Maybe life under sharia is fun. Maybe when the rest of the world realizes that we have no intention of ever paying back that $16,000,000,000,000.00 (and counting) that we've borrowed from them, they won't devalue the dollar, causing hyperinflation here at home. Maybe China will just keep on giving us money and not demand our hearts, souls, national monuments and marriageable daughters as payment.

I've watched my candidate lose elections before but I've never felt the way I did last night when this one was called for Obama.

It wasn't bitterness or sadness or even disappointment. It took me a while to figure out what it was. Then it hit me; it was horror.

Pure, unadulterated horror.

Not because of Obama, but because of what it says about us, the American people, that we chose this.

It shouldn't have even been close. Faced with the choice between taking charge of our destiny and tackling our financial problems, we opted to get high and have sex. We re elected a guy who doesn't understand that a growing economy that creates more taxpayers will bring in more revenue than higher taxes. A Commander in Chief who doesn't know our military still uses bayonets. A man who wants to control the economy without even knowing the difference between bankruptcy and liquidation. It was one thing to elect an unknown quantity, buying his line of 'Hope and Change'. It's something else to deliberately choose his failed policies over someone who has actually achieved success in life. I never dreamed America would do that.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, Hello Idiocracy!

Goodbye, recovery.

Goodbye, energy independence.

Goodbye, religious liberty.

Goodbye, liberty and justice for all.

Goodbye, America dream.

It profits a man nothing to lose his soul for the whole world but we threw ours away for cell phones and birth control pills.

In the twentieth century (the American Century), we stepped up to the plate three times and saved the rest of the world from fascism, nazism and communism. We were the cavalry, always riding to the rescue.

Now, we've gotten rid of our horses, spent all our money on windmills, alienated our allies, bowed to our enemies, cut ourselves off from our own natural resources thrown away our children's birthright and spent their inheritance.

And we did it on purpose.

When the wolf is at the door (and he's coming, yelling 'Allahu Akbar') we're going to find out that there is no one out there to come to our rescue.

On the bright side, maybe it'll all turn out great. After all, I don't know anything.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:01 am

Well, It's official; I don't know anything.

That bit seems pretty reasonable to me.

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:22 pm

I find it remarkable that anyone supporting Romney would use the term "alienating our allies". I know they live in an echo chamber, but between the British response to Romney's visit and the utterly insane popularity of Obama from everyone outside the US, you'd think they'd have encountered it at some point.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:14 pm

I think the logic is that they only count as allies if they don't like Obama.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:55 pm

In the twentieth century (the American Century), we stepped up to the plate three times and saved the rest of the world from fascism, nazism and communism. We were the cavalry, always riding to the rescue.

I like how he doesn't realize that we actually lost the war on communism. Communism failed in Russia not because of America, FUCK YEAH!, but because Gorby wasn't that good a leader. If I remember. Maybe he was. I dunno. All I really remember from History class is that people had to wear clothes after the Europeans came to the US, and that was bad. I slept through most of the later 20th century.

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:07 pm

Chamomile wrote:I think the logic is that they only count as allies if they don't like Obama.

The only country that preferred Romney to Obama was Pakistan:

The Hamlet quote in there was really weird.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:31 pm

Koumei wrote:
Well, It's official; I don't know anything.
That bit seems pretty reasonable to me.

Yeah, that is why it is only a nearly pure string of lies. I should note that her dad did not actually write this himself (he forwarded it with his words 'I couldn't say it better myself'). I think he did personally highlight certain sections for our benefit like on healthcare because my wife explained to her mom that she gets denied insurance due to preexisting conditions and Romney wanted to repeal obamacare (her mom denied this despite it being one of his biggest campaign promises).

I wanted to e-reply with ' you know this not true right?' My standard opener against republican talking points when they are rubbed in my face and I am not permitted to ignore them politely. But this was email and I can still politely ignore it.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:38 pm

Shrapnel wrote:I like how he doesn't realize that we actually lost the war on communism. Communism failed in Russia not because of America, FUCK YEAH!, but because Gorby wasn't that good a leader.

I'm not even sure you can call him a leader.

His big action was to dissolve the bankrupt USSR and (attempt to) create a democracy (but Yeltsin fucked that up.)

Regardless, there were a lot of problems with the system that factored to its impending collapse well before Gorby rose to power.

Still had nothing to do with Reagan though.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:39 pm

Darth Rabbitt wrote:
I'm not even sure you can call [Gorbachev] a leader.

His big action was to dissolve the bankrupt USSR and (attempt to) create a democracy (but Yeltsin fucked that up.)

Transitioning to a new form of government without crazy bloodshed or war is a pretty big action. I'd consider that sufficient grounds to call Gorbachev a leader.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:52 pm

Fair enough.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:00 pm

Whatever wrote:The Hamlet quote in there was really weird.

The Hamlet quote is shockingly meta. The saying refers to the ability to correctly identify the traits of things in reality. The bitter tirade is about the fact that the author was wrong about the traits things really have. Even if you accept the author's contention that Romney would have done all those marvelous things about hill city building, the fact remains that it is the author who was unable to tell a hawk from a hack saw. The American electorate presumably still can.

-Username17

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:11 pm

Oh, but the rabbit hole goes deeper. Here's the full quote.

(Hamlet, feigning madness, is talking to Rosencrantz and Guildenstern):

Ham. Gentlemen, you are welcome to Elsinore. Your hands, come then; the appurtenance of welcome is fashion and ceremony: let me comply with you in this garb, lest my extent to the players—which, I tell you, must show fairly outward—should more appear like entertainment than yours. You are welcome; but my uncle-father and aunt-mother are deceived.
Guil. In what, my dear lord?
Ham. I am but mad north-north-west: when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw.

It's not just about correctly identifying the traits of things in reality, it's about whether someone who apparently cannot do that is actually faking, and can. I doubt the person forwarding the email had enough self-awareness to realize the humor, but it's possible that the original author slipped that in as some kind of meta-meta joke.

edit: I missed the "windmills" line the first time. That one is great too.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:59 am

erik wrote: I wanted to e-reply with ' you know this not true right?' My standard opener against republican talking points when they are rubbed in my face and I am not permitted to ignore them politely. But this was email and I can still politely ignore it.

I just reply with a link to a hardcore pornographic website. The link is typically "An interesting response that addresses some of the key points there, summed up in better words than I could".

No, not goatse or whatever, just stuff that could hopefully distract them for a while - remind them that there are better uses for the Internet than pissing people off.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:45 am

I totally empathize, erik. My dad and step-mother send me that crap all the time.

The last one was this: The End of an Empire {Conservative, Fear-mongering, Lies, Fallacies}

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:52 am

I like how they try to make it sound like ending empires is a bad thing.

Especially when the author almost certainly got off to Reagan "fighting the Evil Empire," given that she calls Barack Obama a commie every chance she gets in that article.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:09 am

If they really liked empires so much they'd swear loyalty to Her Majesty. America used to belong to an Empire, after all, and I don't recall them being that happy about it.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:02 am

Semi-old: From August/October.

Racist conservative dingbat proposes Alaska be a ground for secessionists to try to split from America and try to cut deals with China and Russia for military protection from the US.* Read it your own risk. May cause damage to SAN score.

Dude spends fifteen minutes knocking holes in Fringeelement's insanity seven ways from Sunday.

*Fringe Elements (aka variants thereof) calls himself a "race realist" and keeps on trotting out the same conservative pseudo-science to claim that the various human skin tones are irreconcilably different and have no business living together. There's been a couple of people who've debunked him point by point. And now he's trying his hand in political theory. Ain't that cute.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:55 am

Ah yes, race realists. When someone gets told "Uh no, actually it isn't okay to be a racist any more, and that shit hasn't been okay for longer than you've been alive." they typically have a few options:
[*]Claim they're not racist, just misanthropic - they hate everyone equally*
[*]Use made-up science and claim they're just a "race realist"
[*]Be honest about it, at the cost of nobody wanting to associate with them
[*]Turn 60, read tabloids/watch Fox, and start sentences with "I'm not a racist, but".

*I'm aware that there are legitimate misanthropes who actually do have a problem with their fellow man in general, probably even on the Den. Sorry, but your flag is one that racists and sexists hide behind.